Prejudice in Marn

[Thelonius Gant]

Hello all!
It's me!
Yay!

But anyways, I was just reading Rail's new character guide (Which rules) but the part about prejudice confuses me.

Finally, prejudice tends to be mild in Marn & Shim, because non-humans are simply too common to easily persecute.

I'd always though that Marn would be quite a bit prejudiced, due to the majority of humans and the general culture of the city. In the setting information for Thar it says that:

The population is more than half human, followed by a mix of elves and half-elves. All kinds of other races live in the city as well. Tolerated as long as they obey the strict laws, they are generally treated as second class citizens because of their magical "impurities".

This would make sense as the religion of Marn seems to dictate that humans were the only species not tainted by magic and all other species are inferior. Also, since the vast majority of the city guard are human I'd imagine there would be some level of discrimation against those who were not human.

I don't think there'd be race wars or anything it's just I'd imagine that a lot of humans in the city would see all the non humans as lesser creatures.

Anyways, I just wanted to ask about this since Thelonius is all secret racist.
And maybe I am too!
...damn elves.

[Julen]

My understanding has always been that elves make up a significant enough portion of the population (and were even among the First Settlers) that they are not universally discriminated against, although particular characters may certainly be biased against them. Gnomes are considered peculiar but necessary. Most other races would probably be viewed with some suspicion.

But what the heck do I know?

[Sir Karsimir]

You are correct that Marn culture regards humans as the only race untainted by magic and everything else as inferior, but various nonhumans make up a fair chunk of the population. Less than half but more than a third - I'd say around 40%.

So while they see nonhumans as lesser creatures, nearly half of the city is made up of said lesser creatures. With those numbers involved, nearly any human knows a few nonhumans personally - nonhumans are simply something which the humans of Marn have to deal with as part of their day-to-day lives. They just have to live together.

Elves and part-elves make a reasonable portion of the City Guard, and the Guard will allow big and scary nonhumans to join the Guard on a case-by-case basis due to their typically extensive qualifications of ass-kicking.

I will be amending the new character guide as I get ideas, critiques like this are perfectly welcome. I will also be clarifying that statement to refer to standard-issue prejudice rather than individual prejudice.

[Thelonius Gant]

While I recognise that a significant amount of the population is non human I just don't think the area demographics would be 60-40 all over the city. For instance I'd imagine there are there are quite a lot of non-humans living in the shanty town but not nessecarily as many in the residential district. I mean there would be around all right but I'd tend to think that the majority of people would stick to their own kind.

According to the setting the "Nearly all the Guardsmen are human or half-elven males" and I think that kinda sets the tone. Being a half elf isn't terrible cause your kinda human and being an elf is okay I guess but at the end of the day you're not human. Chances are there are a significant number of non-human Battlemages but they're seen as a nessecary evil by the people.

I understand I'm coming at this from mostly a personal point of view but I think that since Marn is such a grim and dreary place in every other aspect that I can't quite understand how it doesn't have this problem.

[Sir Karsimir]

I think I need to clarify 'mild prejudice' - active persecution of nonhumans would be individual actions rather than standard behaviour in the city. Humans get given priority over nonhumans in most things, and people make lots of jokes about gnomes being explosion prone and elves being wierd, but standard policy is not to burn your house down or destroy your place of business because your granny was an elf.

Tolerance gets less the wierder things are. People will quite readily take advantage of a troll's stupidity and feel fully justified in doing so. Fae are under the most risk because they are considered both mischievous and magical, and more importantly because people have a better chance of being mean to fae and getting away with it.

But still, negative attitudes towards elves and gnomes (the 2 major nonhumans of Marn) tend to be more irritation and annoyance than mouth-foaming hatred. They are thoroughly integrated into society, as the number of half-elves will tell you.

[Frug]

You need to keep in mind that Marn is a progressive place in many ways. It is a city that is small enough to effectively cut off all non-humans from becoming citizens. But they don't. They say that if you want to come and join our city, if you want to seek refuge from the perversions of the rest of the world and become one of us, we will let you. Just follow our laws and behave yourself, and we forgive, and even pity your tainted soul. There's no reason why we have to allow non humans, but we do because it's part of our culture.

There is no distinction between religion, culture, and law in Marn, hence the full title of the judges of religious, cultural, and ethical enforcement. Marnians are puradynes who mistrust and even hate outsiders more than anything else. The fact that someone is a Marnian citizen tempers hatred because that person is not, at least, an outsider. That person is still a Marnian, and that's worth something. According to the law, a citizen is a citizen, and a citizen with magic is like a citizen with a disease.

This quote was on the old setting pages, but got lost after the transfer a few months ago:
"The one true race is man. Purest of Pal Tahrenor, he was the first race and he alone can exist without magic, clean of its influence. It is to man we entrust Thar Shaddin... And his brother, the elf, victim of the twisting magics but still strong, stands beside him... "
- Tomes of the First Settlers, Book i, Knowledge

Some of the First Settlers were elves. Metarie is a direct descendant of them. There are two races in the Marn city guard: humans and elves. Guardsmen are the heroes of Marn. Anyone who has a problem with an elven guardsman had better damn well keep that to himself, or he's going to get hurt.

[Metarie]

Theo, I think the term 'tolerate' is a very grey word and subject to individual player interpretation. If you are writing NPCs or PCs and want to write them as the type with that thinly veiled prejudice that is 'tolerance' in the ugly sense of the word, I say go for it! I think that adds a sense of (unfortunate) realism to the setting.

[Jenica Sabiny]

I think that the setting description needs to be re-worded. Saying "second-class citizens" denotes a WAY higher level of intolerance than what this conversation has established.

[Metarie]

I agree. Look at the climate in the US post Civil War up to the Civil Rights movement and I think you would have a good example.

[Jenica Sabiny]

Ree's right. There is a historical precedence for the kind of situation we would be looking at (heck, there are about a hundred), and prejudice does not always translate to burning crosses. You can hate a race without actively trying to stamp them out - though those kind of people would certainly still exist.

Also, prejudice is one of the easiest ways to keep a people down and controlled. For a city like Marn, that hates magic users so much, it would make sense for them to foster a community that emphasizes the sub-humanness (and therefore societal and cultural inferiority) of magical beings. Elves are at the top of the list in terms of treatment because the religion and tomes claim them to be near as brothers - but they are still "second-class" citizens. A fairy like Gelden or Uluki would be horribly persecuted just because they're a fairy.

So we have a city built on magical persecution which is backed by a religion/tomes that claim magical beings are cursed. I'm not saying that we should start hunting down fae in the streets, but I do think that saying prejudice is minor doesn't make logical sense.

[Blood Ravenous]

Perhaps the environment is much like present America, where there are a lot of people who are prejudiced and aren't afraid to show it, but there are also a lot of progressive people who accept others more openly. That would still leave the amount of prejudice open to individual character interpretation. Without some sort of civil movement, however, it's not really plausible.

[Sir Karsimir]

Generally speaking most Marnians have their hatred aimed at outsiders rather than fellow citizens. They might and probably would see non-humans as inferior, but more with the blase attitude of an accepted 'fact' rather than anything worth getting worked up about.

We don't constantly talk about the sky being up, or water being wet, fire being hot, or anything else so blatantly obvious. In the same vein, Marnians don't feel a need to go on about nonhumans being inferior - it's common knowledge, why make an issue of it?

I agree with Blood's idea, that lots of people are prejudiced, but lots of people are more tolerant. I would say most people care more about their daily lives than race.

[Jenica Sabiny]

That pretty much ties in to what I said - that you can hate a race without actively trying to stamp it out.

My only issue here is claiming the racism is "minor" while also saying that fae are second-class citizens. I'm not a settings hog by any means, so Ryxa's idea allowing flexibility is probably the best one. But I also don't want to make any player who is depicting active racism towards their character feel silly because it's supposedly "minor" (like, say, Uluki).

Elves being the top of the subhuman food chain makes sense, with fae and the rest steadily decreasing in terms of value. But you also have to take into account that if humans are superior, and magical beings inferior, than a magic-wielding human is "cursed" and likely considered tainted. The battlemages are a perfect example of this viewpoint being enforced; they're all nutbucking insane, and perception is that magic is to blame.

Basically my point is that if the society believes that magic is the root of all evil, then there have to be some kind of noticeable repercussions of that within the culture - ie magical creatures being subhuman and treated as such.

[Julen]

I agree that no player should feel silly for depicting active racism against their character -- especially when their character is a fairy. I know that, at one point, Lyl asked Frug what would happen if Uluki tried to get a healing license (as Karsimir had done). His response was that she'd be tossed in jail and they'd throw away the key. Clearly, extremely magical beings like fae are persecuted.

On the other hand, I also know what Frug said would happen if Julen reported his magical abilities. Basically, he'd fill out a form, be told not to use his magic, and sent on his way. No torture, no banishment, no execution. He wouldn't even have to wear a scarlet "M" on his shirt.

I think part of the confusion is that Marnians clearly have a double standard where magic is concerned. The religious books say it's evil. But it also allows the city to survive. Without healing magic, people live shorter, much more unpleasant lives. Without battlemages, Marn would be vulnerable to any army that showed up wielding powerful sorcery. And without gnomish magic, the lights go out, the water stops running, and all sorts of other "modern" conveniences go away. Clearly, the citizens of Marn aren't so bigoted against magic that they aren't willing to benefit from it.

Prejudice should just be handled on a case by case basis. Some characters, such as Uluki or Gelden, may suffer a great deal from it. But I also think it's perfectly legitimate for characters like Julen to feel no real bigotry against more magical beings -- unless you count his bias against battlemages. And that's just because they're batshit insane.

[Sir Karsimir]

No one is supposed to feel silly for depicting active racism in Marn, nor is anyone supposed to feel silly for not depicting racism either. The point is that hardcore racism may exist, but it won't be the entire city - so Marnian humans are free to be progressive and Marnian elves/gnomes can have persecution-free backgrounds.