Thar Shaddin

As I've been hanging out here, catching up on all the threads, I've noticed that nearly everyone has been doing this sort of thing for A LOT longer than I have. So I thought I'd tap into the group's collective wisdom.

What makes a good RP? When you encounter another character, what can they do to make the interaction something that both players will enjoy? Conversely, what bad habits turn you off during a RP? (Other than, of course, someone killing your character without your permission to do so. I think even a newbie like me has picked up on that one.)

I realize that everyone goes into RP wanting something different. The threads here at Thar Shaddin are nothing if not diverse -- Admira and Jenica have been bitch-slapping each other for three pages of the most detailed violence I've ever read, while Illilli and Geldenwing have been engaging in some of the funniest dialog I've ever read. And I don't know what all the evil characters are doing in that crypt, but I'm sure it's nothing good. But I thought that if there were any common preferences or dislikes, then hearing about them might help me play better. And even if there aren't any common things, then at least finding out what you like will help me do better if I ever encounter your character.

So, any thoughts on the subject would be greatly appreciated.

You think that's detailed? Heh, it could be a lot worse...or better, if you're twisted like me.

Well, I'll admit, I'm very new to board-based RP, so I don't know that I have much to offer. I'd actually be curious to see what other people say. As for me, in any kind of RP, the range of things I enjoy is fairly wide, but I'm a big fan of great character interaction -- when characters interact in a way that reveals, or even changes, something about each, I really come away happy. I don't know what to tell you about what can be done to "make the interaction something that both players will enjoy". I think if you get two or more skilled players who want to make the experience an enjoyable one for all parties involved (rather than being focused solely on what they and their characters get out of it), the experience will be a good one. *shrug* If that makes any sense at all.

Bad habits? Well, there are, as you said, a lot of obvious ones: anything that breaks the basic rules of decency in RP, like killing off a character without permission. Poor writing is also a huge pet peeve of mine, but I don't think that's an issue at all here, as opposed to some of the chat-based and email-based games I've been in. Otherwise, I can't think of anything I particularly dislike, not off the top of my head, except that I hate being bored. So, what, don't be boring?

So, I'm done rambling on -- hope that helped? Ish?

This is long. You have been warned!!!

You know, I didn't feel old until I saw a Coolio song yesterday. You know the one, older people: 1, 2, 3, 4, get your woman on the floor? Do you realize that song came out in 1995? That song is OVER TEN YEARS OLD?! Yeah, I felt old yesterday.

It may seem unrelated, but the point is I've been writing out my rp since around that time, which is creepy to me. My tastes are erratic, and I play diverse characters. I can say that two things above anything else turn me off of a character, and by proxy their player:

1. Ignoring other people's posts
2. A lack of logic - characters doing something stupid, or retarded, or worse. This, more than anything else, drives me up the wall. Often, if this is done in a post with my characters, I'll allow my characters injury due to the other's player's idiocy. It makes me insane. I froth at the mouth and everything. And I rebel by hurting my girls. It's logical to me.

Now, for what I love...

1. A player with an emotional investment in their character. This is the key ingredient to good playing; if you don't care about, or hate, the person you've created, then you have no right to be writing that person's history. A lot of writers will create a throwaway character, a Mary Sue, something common and pathetically cliche, and then play it just like you'd expect. There's nothing interesting about a stereotype.

I actually refused to play a vampire character for this reason. I mean *years*, I refused. I created Jen because Fruggles begged me to, and I did so with the agreement that I could play her the way I wanted a vampire to be played, and I'd ignore the stupid little rules and regulations that are associated with vampires. In rp world, there only seem to be two kinds of vampires: the soulful heartbreak Anne Rice type, and the sophisticated sociopath. I have no interest in either; I find them both boring. I didn't want to play what a vampire was (a human), I wanted to play what a vampire *is*: an animal that eats people.

Fruggles agreed 'cause he had no choice, and Jen was sired. I'm always worried that I'm still writing a cliche, or that she's boring to read, and will ask people I'm posting with if what I've written is ok. I'm paranoid.

2. A post that's more than one 3-sentence paragraph. Give me something to read, something to react to, something to play off of. If it has to be one sentence, I understand, but for God's sake at least try!

3. A modest writer. There's nothing wrong with being aware that you write well, and taking credit for it. But if someone offers a suggestion, consider it before you start getting angry and offended.

4. An intelligent reader. If you notice the nuances of another character, and exploit those nuances, I respect you as a writer. Those nuances exist for the purpose of being exploited after all.

5. A player who's willing to throw a wrench in the machine. I don't like structured plots; they limit people. I like flexibility. I like the fact that at any moment in a thread, a dragon could swoop in and eat everyone. Randomness is more fun to react to, because you have to think up your reply. If it's all set in stone, where's the fun at?

I've found that an easy way to separate a good player from a bad player is to throw a punch at them. Watch and see how the other player dodges, or if they dodge at all. Dodging a hit isn't bad, but if they player does a triple backflip out of the way, then runs up the wall and starts shooting lasers from their eyes...yeah. I hate that.

I think if you get two or more skilled players who want to make the experience an enjoyable one for all parties involved (rather than being focused solely on what they and their characters get out of it), the experience will be a good one.

That's the big rule of thumb, but what 'skilled' means is important, cause I don't think it means skilled writing necessarily. You have to know how to work with what you've got, and make it interesting while staying within the bounds of the rp. And it is a communal effort. The worst thing you can do is go in expecting that everyone else will make things interesting for you, and set up a situation so that the obvious actions fall into your lap. We say 'be proactive, not reactive' because being purely reactive will destroy your part in the RP.

What makes things interesting? I think the same things that make movies interesting, like drama and surprise. Confrontations between characters with opposing agendas, or characters developing complicated relationships, or (yes) falling in love. It happens, the love thing, though rarely here. Maybe people are shy, I dunno. It happens a lot on forums with younger members, but that comes with a crapload of other bad stuff.

One important thing to realize is that things will become exponentially more interesting as plot lines eventually collide. When that group of villains encounters a group of good guys. And after that, over time as they get to know each other and mingle as a big soupy mess of individual relationships, things can get neat. But that takes time, and people rarely stick with it long enough.

Also, pure and simple shock value is good. If you have the guts.

Bad things? The worst is, as I say, being reactive and docile. Next to that, being cliche. New RPers (new writers) don't yet know what's cliche or don't realize it is. After doing this for so many years some things annoy me. ie. Focusing on your characters eyes too much; how they twinkle, and change color every time something happens. Eyes are important but shouldn't be the sole focus of your emotive writing.

However the absolute worst, worst, is giving up. If everyone had stayed, we'd have like 50 people now, and the interaction would be great.

So far, I agree with both Frug and Jenica. I'll try not to repeat what they said, but I will probably expand on it.

Giving up. It's not necessarily the person quitting, but it could be that life gets in the way. I know, it happens. What bothers me is that some people don't have the respect to say something like "Life has come up, I won't be able to RP for a while. Sorry, let me extricate my character from such and such a thread."

Board-based RPing takes a lot of time. I've found that, in Thar especially, you have to keep up on what other characters are doing in other threads. At points, each character will interact with another, whether it be a passing conversation, or bumping into someone on the street with a mumbled apology. We've been trying to keep the timelines for threads similar, within a day or two of each other (or at least, I have been trying to reconcile them that way!).

My second point deals with reality. I know, reality in a fantasy-based world is subjective, and occasionally moot. But people need to realize that even magical creatures with specific skills have limits, and no matter how hard they try, cannot surpass those limits. Some people have a hard time allowing their character to be hurt, but that is simply a part of living. Even though your character may be able to dodge faster than your average person, occasionally someone is going to do something that character doesn't expect, and suddenly there's a knife in your character's ribs, or your character is blinking up from his seat on the ground at the guardsman standing over him with a rather large club.

Every person, whether it be a magical creature or a simple human, will react logically to what is happening around them, or should, given the opportunity. Granted, there are moments when a character will react irrationally, something a little beyond their nature.
Example: Kamar jumping from a 12-15 feet in the air to tackle the person he has been hired to kill. Any assassin in their right mind would never do such a thing, especially with guardsmen in hot pursuit. However, I have often stressed that Kamar is extremely vain, and often not in a 'right' frame of mind.

Ok, I think I'm done. Aside from one last comment.

Jenica Sabiny wrote:I've found that an easy way to separate a good player from a bad player is to throw a punch at them. Watch and see how the other player dodges, or if they dodge at all. Dodging a hit isn't bad, but if they player does a triple backflip out of the way, then runs up the wall and starts shooting lasers from their eyes...yeah. I hate that.

Except for the lasers... that was Kamar! Kidding. He's only done a backward handspring. With a recently relocated shoulder. Followed by a one handed backward handspring with a twist.

All joking aside, I agree with that. I have found that on chat based RPing, you get a lot of people who don't want to allow their characters to be hurt, and so make impossible dodges. Only once was I genuinely impressed with someone in a chat-based fight. His character had left himself mildly vulnerable, and my character was willing to trade a hit for a hit/possible kill. Once the player realized there was no real way for his character to get out of the situation, he allowed his character to have his arm nearly separated from his shoulder.

Ah, memories. I love Mavarion. He was great! A complete psycho, and never did anything anyone would expect. You will all love him too, especially Jenica.

Anyways, I'm done rambling and reminiscing. That's my 2 cents.

I hope everyone will consider this discussion to still be open, but I wanted thank Amira, Jenica, Frug, and Kamar for taking the time to write such detailed responses to my question. The things you said were really helpful.

Trying to distill everything in my mind, it seems like a lot of what you mentioned comes down to respect. To summarize:

Respect for your fellow players means paying attention to what their character is doing, reacting to what their character is doing (rather than simply forcing your own agenda), allowing them to have some affect on your character (either emotional or physical), giving them something interesting to react to, sticking around (or, at least, keeping them informed when you have to be away), and sparing them from trying to read horrible grammar.

Respect for your character means taking the time to create someone who is interesting, and who -- for whatever reason -- matters to you. It means playing them like the person you created, not like whoever it is most convenient for them to be at that moment. (In other words, don't behave like a complete lunatic unless your character actually IS a complete lunatic.) It means making an effort to get them involved in situations that will intrigue and challenge them. It means committing yourself to seeing their story through to its end, however long that takes. Perhaps most importantly, it means letting them grow. Characters who win all the time don't grow much. Growing often requires getting injured, losing a fight, being betrayed by an ally, getting your heart broken.

Having all that in my head will definitely help me be a better player. So again, thanks a lot!

Oh, and Jenica, this is how I knew I was old. When I realized that the muzak being played in my local grocery store was the same Ramones song I listened to in my rebellious punk rock youth.

Quality not quantity for me. Also, when I RP with someone, I like to give them options. By that I mean make my post have a purpose, but give people a chance to respond in as many different ways as I can. I like plots, but I also like to be surprised. The best skill is writing around the other person in a way that moulds your writing. Its reads fluently and becomes a story, not just an action and reaction.

What annoys me? Not many things really, I am an understanding RPer and like to help people become better players and writers if possible. The only thing that truly bugs me is god modding. People who power play. Now I am prone to powerful characters, but I do NOT powerplay...nonono. Story over power for me every time. If an RP will benefit from my character getting his/her ass kicked, or even dying, I'll do it.

Balance is the most important thing for sure. And respect. I have been at boards where others bitch about some peoples standard of writing. I have had these same players at my board and given a chance, they have proven they are better then the first harsh judgement. As long as people/newbs don't keep making the same mistakes over and over, I am always up for RPing with anyone.

Oh yes, abuse of admin power and owners who fuck off are the worst of my pet peevs. Frug is a great owner, and he has awesome admins, there is respect all around and it makes for a great atmosphere. When admins abuse their power, take control of an RP for the good of their character, or become elitist, then it makes for a poor RP and horrible atmosphere. Telling people what they should do in an OOC post, ah, that pisses me off. I only EVER makes a suggestion, and only if someone is having writers block...or like with my current RP, if I need to write about the actions of anothers future, I correlate and speak with that person. ALWAYS ASK PERMISSION, don't put words in other characters mouths, and if you make assumptions make it clear your character is making that assumption...

I am ranting... sorry.

Greetings, phoenixbyrd! And thanks for taking the time to answer my question. You make some really good points. I especially want to acknowledge what you said about a good owner being key to a good RP experience.

Thar Shaddin was the second RP site I applied to. The first, which shall remain nameless, was owned by a lady who bothered to check on her site less than once a week. My character application sat around for so long that I eventually sent her an email asking when I could expect a decision -- which she never answered. Finally, she looked at my application, and asked for one minor change before she approved it. I made the change. And my application sat there for ANOTHER week. Now, keep in mind that during this time I'm reading all about the other characters, and the milieu, and the current plot happenings. I even got in touch with another member there to arrange to RP with them when my character got approved. And you know what happened? The owner decided to close the site because things "just weren't going the way she wanted." So there's three weeks of my life basically wasted.

Frug, on the other hand, approved my character within 24 hours and I was able to jump right in. Huge thanks for that! If another RP site owner had jerked me around like the first one, I probably would have given up. So, yes, a good owner makes all the difference.

No joke there. To further agree with PB and you, Julen, the staff of a board do make a huge difference, but the atmosphere they allow is the most important aspect of any board. If you don't feel happy on the board, or if there's drama, or you don't think you can joke around with your fellow players, or if there's infighting all over the place, or anything like that...it's no fun for anyone.

Some admins freak out when a situation comes up and decide to shut down anything that they find out of their control in an attempt to control everything at once. It always fails, and leaves people unhappy. God willing, nothing like that will ever happen here, but I know Fruggles would never do that, because he doesn't want to hear me bitching him out for being a jerk...again.

Oh yeah, and I guess respecting people is important too. Everyone except Fruggles, that is.

I'm far from perfect but I won't stand in the way of people's RP. The general groundwork for this place is the way I want it to be. I have no reason to stifle others if they want to do something with it as long as the basis remains the same. It was created for that purpose, not for me to have my own forums. I don't want my own forums and being an admin isn't something I jump at.

All I do right now is try to provide the same standards for everyone's characters by approving the bios. Kamar has written some more descriptions to add to the setting, so it won't just be my work in there anymore, and everyone who sticks around is allowed to give input into the world development.

As mentioned before, respect makes a huge difference. Create opportunities for your fellow poster is also nice. Remember that this is a cooperative hobby.

Unlike Jenica, I like having an idea where things are going and to plan out storylines. In fact, I was putting some major thought to creating a character as a Griori mentor for Xyon.

The trick is to not take yourself to seriously - not to mind getting injured if it furthers the story.

I know this is a little late, but I am new here, and I couldn't resist, so I hope you don't mind. I have several detailed answers to your question, some of which have already been stated, some which have not, and some which have had similar statements already made. But I must say before I get into all that, that I never understood why people are so against the death of characters without permission. I would never kill anyone else's characters without permission, simply because everyone seems to be so against it, but I have to say I honestly wouldn't mind. And I do feel a connection with my characters, I don't want to lose them, and I get upset when they do, it's just that I think the furtherance of the story should be more important than my characters life. I for one like the surprise of having to deal with a character dying, and if you have your character fight, I like the idea that he might actually die if you can't reasonably maneuver him out of death. I do understand that people don't like putting a commitment into their characters and then having them die on them, but well, tough luck. I mean one of my pet peeves in novels is when the author keeps characters alive because he likes them. I mean nobody wants them to die, but if they gotta die... they gotta die. I once had an MC (the pov MC) who halfway through the novel ODs, because a) he needed to die for the plot, and b) he had been doing so much drugs and alcohol through out the book you were wondering how the hell this guy was still alive. (And this was a fictional book in a fantasy setting, not a book based on real people, in fact when I sent a synopsis to an editor, just to see what he thought, he loved the idea of killing the pov character, and having the pov switch!) On the other hand killing characters off simply because you don't like is something I see as just as bad, but it's pretty much the same thing. Of course my view assumes that everyone is mature enough to only kill without permission to further the story, but after reading some posts, that wouldn't seem to be a problem here.
Secondly, I strongly disagree with the fact that if you hate a character you should not write him/her. I do agree that you should have a special connection, but hate is a form of a bond, and writing a character you hate from several points of view can create quite an interesting effect. Also the fact that you hate a character can give the character just as much life as loving him. As for a reason to keep him around, you simply have to be mature enough to know when he should stay and when he should go, if he should stay or go at all.

In answer your question, I agree with all the positives Jen (and everyone, but especially her) said, and I love shock value, but only if it makes sense, and works.

My pet peeves? Power gamers, and people who shy away from taboo issues, be blunt dam it! It's more interesting. Oh and when people make characters who are nothing but what the author wants them to be. AKA a form of Mary Sue, that and Mary Sues in general.

On the subject of cliches they can annoy me, but I am of the opinion that if done correctly, they can be brilliant. I would give a more detailed answer, butn right now I am doing many things at once, so I'm too lazy.

Greetings Azer! Thanks for throwing in your contribution to my topic.

I share your pet peeve about authors who love their characters too much to ever kill them -- or, even worse, kill them and then bring them back to life again and again, until their death means nothing. On another board where I used to write, I earned the title (and I quote) "Sadistic Bitch Of An Author" simply because I occasionally killed my characters and kept them dead.

That said, I don't think anyone here is saying that they never want to let their character die. The "no killing without permission" rule is a protection against certain types of RP'ers who are only happy if their character rides into town and effortlessly kills everyone they feel like killing. Some of the stories here have been brewing for many months. To have an outsider suddenly walk into one of them and randomly kill one of the protagonists would serve neither the plot nor the players. Also, I think the "no killing without permission" rule helps people feel comfortable starting out with very low level characters, which is very much encouraged here at Thar Shaddin.

I guess I think of this more as collaborative writing than a true RP like D&D, where if the dice fall wrong, you have to suck it up and die. And a collaboration means reaching certain agreements about what's best for the story. I and Railtus do that all the time, from discussing what background an NPC should have, to deciding what weapon my character is going to get trained to use. Since we talk about all that, I certainly think we'd talk about either of us dying.

Hmmm.... Maybe "Sadistic Bitch Of An Author" could be one of the new award categories.

Er...

I think Jess/Jenica wins that one hands down. Wait until you see what a god can do...

Kamar Deythal wrote:Er...

I think Jess/Jenica wins that one hands down. Wait until you see what a god can do...

Yeah, I can't argue with that.