Thar Shaddin

5:28 PM David: So, you've been bitchy with new applicants for the last couple weeks or so...
5:40 PM Frug: have I? I don't think I have
5:40 PM David: Stabbed someone in the eye?
5:40 PM Frug: he doesn't count

I don't like to discuss moderation but sometimes it's best not to keep everything in the shadows.

First, what happened, if anyone missed it. There was an application of an anime character here, and I didn't even read it. I got to the reference to the final fantasy buster sword, told him I wanted to stab him in the eye for that, and just ignored the app from there on as unsalvageable. Dave moved it, in order to hide my venom from public view... or something.

I do retain the right to do that to movie characters, and ESPECIALLY to video-game characters. It means they didn't even skim the rules, and that annoys me.

So I'm not really asking about those, because there is no leeway regarding them. But what about others? Should I be letting more people in? Would you guys rather see all kinds of Joes walking around? There have been some bad experiences in the past with people who just can't write. Sometimes good people do a bad app though, or get culled by mistake.

Am I too strict with applications?

No, not really.



To be serious, though: The only time I see moderation as a problem is if the current board members aren't happy.

I will say one thing for the animae dude -- it's rare that we get a character application with a possessions list so thorough it details what type of socks he wears and just how many eating utensils he owns. But yes, the character was horribly wrong for Thar Shaddin.

In general, I support a gentle but firm approach. If the application has problems, point them out, and see how willing (and able) the person is to fix them. This not only measures a person's level of skill, but also their level of commitment. If someone can't even be bothered to fix their application, then chances are that they'd turn out to be one of those people who wanders off after a half-dozen posts. I know that coaching someone through the application process by suggesting repeated edits is a lot more work for the moderators -- but I'm not a moderator, so what do I care?

That said, I don't think that having high standards is a bad thing. I really love the fact that all the posts here are such a joy to read -- I don't get yanked out of the story by typos or the inability to understand what the writer is saying. Sure, we all make mistakes. Sometimes we all write a post in more of a rush, or more of a distracted state, than would be ideal. But someone who constantly just types a post as fast as their fingers can go, without even going back to catch the most obvious typos, shows a disrespect for the people they're playing with. People here put a lot into a post, and I think they deserve to play with someone willing to return that effort. To be perfectly honest, and at the risk of sounding like a snob, I like to play with people who have a high writing skill. And by that, I don't mean brilliant metaphors or poetic language. I just mean clear, correct English. If I see an application riddled with mistakes, I'm going to be reluctant to invite that person to join my storyline, even if they do get accepted.

There are lots of sites online where people can RP. The thing that makes Thar Shaddin special to me, other than all the great people here, is the quality of the writing. I really don't see any reason sacrifice that just so we have more players running around. I kind of like the fact that the small membership allows me to keep up with everything happening in the world.

And Frug can reject anyone he wants.

It is also important to not go too far and be elitist.

Actually, in the Character Creation Rules, it doesn't openly state video games. It may help to add something in there to clarify.

Your character cannot be taken from a popular movie, TV show OR book unless you wrote it yourself.

Just add video games to the list. *shrugs* I know it seems obvious to you and me but not everyone will realise it.

Perhaps adding a stated NO ANIME rule would help as well?

ie: I think the problem there is that some of these rules are actually unwritten.




Anyhow, personally I quite like having the high standards. We have had 7 successful applications this month, so the standards are clearly not unreasonable. Slacking the standards to 'All kinds of Joes' would open the door to bad roleplayers in all likelyhood - the sorts who either powerplay, expect everything to revolve around them, or write 2-3 lines and call it a post (which I do seem to encounter a great deal elsewhere, and seems to be almost 'normal' in PBP... I hate lazy posters ).

So keep the standards as they are, they work.

It would be nice to able to make comments or suggestions on some of the applications without having to be moderators, as well. Often when I see things like 'human' listed as a weakness it is annoying not to correct it.

Julen wrote: In general, I support a gentle but firm approach. If the application has problems, point them out, and see how willing (and able) the person is to fix them. This not only measures a person's level of skill, but also their level of commitment. If someone can't even be bothered to fix their application, then chances are that they'd turn out to be one of those people who wanders off after a half-dozen posts. I know that coaching someone through the application process by suggesting repeated edits is a lot more work for the moderators...

You're one of those people who presses space twice after every period. I just noticed that. I think Dave does, or did, that.
I have no problem spending some time working on an app, and I try to have a firm but gentle approach, but when I see some things I just can't respect the person enough to do that. If it's just some bad english, I can avoid being mean, but if it so awfully flaunts a lack of attention to our rules, like the last one, I just can't hold back. I need to have some fun, sometimes.
If you feel it's a problem, or if you think I was giving these forums a bad image by doing something inappropriate, by all means post a reply right under my post telling them to ignore me or telling me to be nicer. I won't get mad at you, I promise.

Julen wrote: But someone who constantly just types a post as fast as their fingers can go, without even going back to catch the most obvious typos, shows a disrespect for the people they're playing with.

Exactly. It has never worked out well. Except for one infamous case, where the guy (who shall remain nameless) was really a nice guy OOC. He took everything well, he tried really hard to take our suggestions, but he just couldn't write or RP to save his life. I felt bad but he had to go.

Julen wrote:And Frug can reject anyone he wants.

Yes and no. Flattery gets you everywhere with me but it's equally important that I don't upset anyone currently active with my decisions. It's best that you say something if it happens - either to me or to Jess, who will tell me.

Calico wrote:It is also important to not go too far and be elitist.

I have been accused of that more than once. Unfortunately, we are somewhat elitist.

Railtus Anstrun wrote: Actually, in the Character Creation Rules, it doesn't openly state video games.

This is my bitter, cynical side showing. If someone can't figure that out, it makes me want to berate them. This is unprofessional of me, and you're probably right, it would help. I'll add it... Although I maintain that it shouldn't be necessary.

Railtus Anstrun wrote:Perhaps adding a stated NO ANIME rule would help as well?

I used to have a reference along the lines of "this is not the place for Goku and Drizzt to duke it out" somewhere, Goku being a reference to my COMPLETE AND UTTER HATRED OF ALL DBZ RELATED ROLEPLAYERS ON THE FACE OF THE INTRANETS. Don't ask. It's because of Yahoo chat history.

I will add that too, simply because anime RP is so bloody prominent online, and I don't like any of it. Anime being an art style, this being writing, the two should not be at all related. And yet, somehow...

Somehow we get a buster sword wielding conglomeration of anime archetypes in an application. And I want to get violent. I cannot properly convey the amount of personal anguish the concept of a buster sword causes me.


Disclaimer: Our friends at Star Army like anime. This is their business. I attempt not to step on their toes at all regarding this fact because Wes is a nice guy and they're a good affiliate.

I had no problem with what you said, Phil, I was just trying to tone it down so it didn't seem overly aggressive. Of course, it was aggressive, and the guy was a bit of a moron about it too. But those are the people we try to weed out anyways.

I should perhaps have left it after he replied, but he had blatantly missed the entire point as to why you had rejected the application in the first place. He would have been similar to another person that "mutually parted ways" with us not too long ago; extremely insulted every time someone asked him to clarify a post, or re-write it.

I have no problem with the way you handle applications, I was just messing with you. But now our personal laundry is aired. I'm going to cry again, Phil.

Frug wrote:Although I maintain that it shouldn't be necessary.

Of course it shouldn't! Since when did that have anything to do with anything?

Somehow we get a buster sword wielding conglomeration of anime archetypes in an application. And I want to get violent. I cannot properly convey the amount of personal anguish the concept of a buster sword causes me.

As a student of swordsmanship, I feel your pain. In my case, it is katanas which infuriate me - because of stupid fanboys who believe the katana is the some sort of ultimate super sword which cuts through all other swords and that western swords are somehow heavy useless junk used by unskilled brutes... In complete disregard for the conflicts in Feudal Europe sparking constant military improvements and experimentation.

So please please please make sure that no one comes in with the expectation that having 'katana' listed as a weapon on his profile allows them to sneak in an unmatched sword. Please spare me the katana myths.

Rant over now (or more accurate, rant continues for half a bloody page).

PS: Chopping with rapiers also annoys me, the blade has no cutting power.

Armour is not paper people. People spent small fortunes to wear 40-60 lbs of steel in combat for a reason.

And so on.


PPS: As a student of arms and armor for many years, I find this both distressing and amusing. When I mention that a Viking sword, "Quernbiter" by name, was called this because it was supposed to have cut a millstone in half, everyone laughs and considers it a tall tale, which it undoubtedly was. Then the same audience will gravely assure me that the Japanese Katana has been known to cut a machine gun barrel in half.

This stunt must have happened several times, because when I tried to track the source, it seems to have occurred on Guadalcanal, Bougainville, Iwo Jima, Tarawa, and several other islands. I have to believe Japanese soldiers have some sort of pathological hatred for machine gun barrels. I have also wondered why they never tried to cut down the gunner.

Not only are Japanese blades exalted by such folks to the point of sheer absurdity, but European blades are downgraded until they become mere bars of iron, incapable of cutting hot butter. This just isn't true.

Turning away from the discussion I would dearly love to have about swords, katanas and rapiers in particular, we should return to the matter in hand, as this, rare as it may seem for us, is important.

Everyone here, with the obvious exception of Frug, who vets his own characters, has gone through the same stringent process to define what we can/can't have/do, etc. I refer anyone reading to the recent problem I had with Elvren's infirmary.

That was my fault, no questions asked, but it also serves to bring about another issue I feel is best raised now. Not only should you be asking if you're too strict with applications, which you are most certaintly not, you should be asking what about the people who post one thing in applications and then go ahead and do completely different things (Elvren and infirmary is the only example I can think of, I just assume it may have happened more than once.)

The obvious applications, like Cole Fletcher's, need no asking. We all agree with those, and it beggars belief anyone should bother to try to bring in uzi's and play a social outcast who is good at social interaction and everything else to do with society.

In my opinion, and here speaketh a man who spent three hours reading and rereading the rules section to make Xyon fit in as best I could, then three days fixing the bugs in my application, the rules are there to be read and obeyed. If people don't bother reading them, they don't deserve to play.

End of.

I'm relatively laid back about players and their styles, but this is because we have high enough standards to begin with that there's only a problem about once every six months. For a message board, this is pretty good odds.

I also don't participate with the profiles because I have unbelievably high standards for a profile, and it wouldn't be fair in the least for me to be a judge.

With that said, I love the current system and no longer believe in giving everyone a fair chance. Not everyone can write, period, and those that can't make the experience frustrating or even infuriating for those that can. I'd rather break the person's widdle heart now than deal with the player complaints later.

PS - I'm not a very nice person. Seriously guys, you have NO idea...

You're nice to US. We can write!!

Me speak English purdy. And I couldn't resist capitalising English, either. :doofus:

The katana thing is only one facet with a glamorization of asian combat, weaponry, and culture that is really prominent in some circles (ie, roleplayers). It's also closely related to anime.

Katanas can cut through anything and kung fu monks can defeat anyone while walking on razors, sucking in their gonads, holding their breath while blindfolded and using only a toothpick which they can throw through glass.

BJJ has kind of proven that kung fu isn't everything. You don't see little asian guys in UFC rings for a reason. I'm sure there were european swords that were damn fine even if they weren't folded 10,000 times and tested on the corpses of a hundred prisoners.

Personally I've always liked cavalry swords. They're good and choppy.

Frug wrote:I'm sure there were european swords that were damn fine even if they weren't folded 10,000 times and tested on the corpses of a hundred prisoners.

Personally I've always liked cavalry swords. They're good and choppy.

As a matter of fact, katanas were only folded around 20 times, with each fold also folding the internal folds, producing a blade 1048576 layers thick.

Pattern-wielded viking swords once used a similar folded iron process, but it was abandoned as being superflous - they were able to get the same results with less effort.

While a katana is a fine sword, it is a curved, single-edged, highly specialised weapon suited to draw cutting and using intensive craftsmanship. Draw cuts do next to nothing against decent forms of armour. So the end result of the katana is an extremely expensive sword highly specialised for killing poorly armoured peasants.

Seems like a waste of a sword to me.

Fun choppy swords are falchions, since most cavalry swords are curved which leads to the same general problems as the katana. A weighted falchion, however, should be able to crash through light armour relatively well.

Generally choppy works far better for axes, which are designed to be a crushing wedge which also happens to be sharp. A long-handled axe will reliably take limbs off people, armoured men put this high on their 'things to avoid' list shortly after maces and warhammers (which in turn comes after fire).

It is kind of strange that few people believe that Westerners had any form of martial art. It would seem obvious that such a history of conflict as that in Feudal Europe would lead to several. In fact, the best way to simulate medieval unarmed combat would probably be mixed martial arts. Knights had an astonishing variety of joint locks and throws, possibly even chokeholds when the bevor did not get in the way... one which cracks me up is grinding the skin of an enemy against maille when in a grapple, much like being attacked by a rabid cheese grater.

More often than not, Western swords optimised for the thrust, longer swords striking from the 'half-sword' grip (with the off-hand grasping halfway up the blade). This was in response to the advancements of armour, and to be better able to stab into a gap or weak point. Shearing cuts were fine, only a secondary function of knightly swords, since hacking through armourless foes did not need focused weapons.

I'm completely glad that you are picky with applications, even if it's me. It results in higher quality profiles as well as straining out the 5 year olds that are just learning how to type (that's how I think of those that can't type well and try to write a story). In your introduction to Thar Shaddin it states that we are for intermediate to advanced skill. We've introduced some new roleplayers to PBP but they could write with enough skill to be in that list, anyway. Rejects really can't complain if they read what they need to because we spell it out pretty well. When we first started TS (back when it was TH) we had some pretty bad writers, including me (thankfully I've matured and gotten better, I hope), and I wouldn't want to go back to that. It's not fun.

Hey, if they learn English better they can come back.

I must admit I've been on the receiving end of insulting appraisals of my profile and that's not cool, so maybe just tell them point-blank but don't be mean. Unless they really deserve it, like anime characters. That annoys me to NO END. I like anime, but they totally warp the characters to how they want and ruin the original story. I don't understand it. Can't they make up their own ideas to roleplay with?